Changing the Future By Understanding the Past: An Interview with Australian Author Sue Williams

Originally hailing from England, naturalised Australian author Sue Williams feels at home in the publishing industry. Prior to writing books, she was a journalist and continues to work in that field. Her 2005 non-fiction release – just one of many books – And Then The Darkness: the disappearance of Peter Falconio and the trails of Joanne Lees received critical acclaim and was shortlisted for the Golden Dagger Award, among other prestigious prizes.

Elizabeth and Elizabeth, Williams’ most recent release, is her debut novel which centres on a possible friendship between two formidable women, Elizabeth Macquarie, and Elizabeth McArthur. In this interview, we talk about the true story behind her fictional account and her research process, what she wants people to take away from reading Elizabeth and Elizabeth, and how she dealt with the more sensitive topics the book features.

Congratulations on the recent release of your new novel, Elizabeth and Elizabeth. I really enjoyed it.

Thanks so much! And thanks for the review- fabulous! Very kind.

Can you tell me a bit about it for those who aren’t aware?

Elizabeth and Elizabeth is a historical novel set in the early days of the Australian colony, about a possible friendship between the wife of the new governor Lachlan Macquarie, Elizabeth Macquarie, and the wife of the wool empire founder John Macarthur, Elizabeth Macarthur. The two men were deadly enemies, on opposite sides of the political divide, but the two women had a great deal in common, and would have worked well together to navigate all the hurdles of a very male world. 

What’s the response been like so far?

It’s been a bit overwhelming. It’s had some great reviews and people have written to me saying how much they’ve loved it. I’m feeling very blessed!

How did you come up with the idea for the book?

I’ve always been interested in the early days of colonial history in Australia, and I kept thinking about these two characters being the leading women of this land in the early days of the 19^th century. The more I thought about it, the more intrigued I became.

Is this something that normally influences or inspires your writing?

I think a good strong idea has the power to capture you. And the more you mull it over, the more enthusiastic you become until … it becomes simply irresistible.

This is your debut novel, but you’ve written numerous non-fiction books before as well as a children’s book. Were you especially nervous leading up to the release?

Incredibly nervous. You put so much of yourself in a novel and you feel very, very vulnerable. With non-fiction, you’re writing, mostly, about other people, so sometimes they interest a reader, and sometimes not. But when it’s a novel, it’s down to you and your imagination (and your research) alone. What if people hate the book? I feel like I didn’t sleep for the two months coming up to the launch, and the month after it. Only now, am I making up for the lost sleep!   

Understandably, this book involves a lot of historical research, something you would be familiar with, both in your other books and your journalistic career. What was your research process like?

It involved a huge amount of research as I wasn’t familiar with this period in Australia’s history at all. I’m from England originally, although I’ve been her for 31 years now, so I started at the beginning. But then a lot of Australians have told me they didn’t learn this kind of history at school, either, so maybe I wasn’t at such a disadvantage!

I ended up reading lots of books about Sydney and about every one of the characters I featured, reading their letters stored in libraries and Government documents about the issues of the time, as well as the early newspapers.

I ended up doing far too much research – I think it sometimes becomes an excuse for not actually getting down to writing. I then wrote brief bios of all the characters and their timelines, and then cross-referenced them all to work out what each person was doing at the same time as others. It became incredibly complicated at times.  

Was there anything in your research that really shocked you, or changed the course of what you thought the book would be?

Originally, I had the Commissioner from Britain, John Bigge, as a fairly major character, along with the two women. Then an editor asked me why I was giving him so much space and said the women’s stories were far more interesting; he was only interesting in the impact he had on the society and their lives.

I realised how right she was, and cut all his chapters. It was heartbreaking after all the research, but an excellent decision. When I went back later to feed something of him back in, I realised that he was a rather colourless bureaucrat, and there was precious little of what I’d written of his life that was interesting enough to go back!

I was also shocked about some of the accounts of the Appin Massacre of Aboriginal people. It was brutal, brutal. And while I didn’t want to excuse it on any level, I realised the soldiers who had committed the murders were ill-disciplined and terrified and then, at the end, pretty blood-thirsty. Lachlan took responsibility as the commander-in-chief, but I believed him to have been as horrified and appalled as Elizabeth would have been, and I certainly was. 

In this book, you deal so sensitively with not only the experiences of women in those early colonial days, but Indigenous perspectives, something a lot of readers will appreciate. Can you tell me a little about why it was so important for you to focus on the marginalised in Elizabeth and Elizabeth?

I felt Elizabeth Macquarie was very aware of marginalised people. She moved the female orphanage from Sydney Town to the river in Parramatta as she was so worried about men on the prowl who could put them in danger, and was patroness of the country’s first charity, the Benevolent Society.

She cared about the welfare of the convicts, and was always eager to lend a helping hand where she could, and was very keen that they be given positions of responsibility after their terms had expired, or if she felt they deserved it, and qualified for early pardons.

With the Aboriginal population, she and Lachlan were both comparatively enlightened for the age, and believed in treating them kindly (although in a very paternalistic way, and not forgetting the massacre). I believe she would have a strong memory of her home in Scotland, and the Highland clearances where farming families were moved off their lands to make way for sheep graziers. She doubtless would have compared that to clearing Aboriginal families off their traditional lands, too.   

What do you want people to take away from reading your work, and this book in particular?

I’d love them to have enjoyed the read, and been enthralled and entertained, and also to have learnt a little of Australia’s history, both black and white. By understanding where we come from, we can examine ourselves more closely about where we are today, and hopefully together, build a better future.

Do you usually plan your book before you start writing, or wait and see what happens?

I tried to plan this one, but the plan kept changing all the time. So there was a lot of writing and seeing where it took me. It’s hard with historical works as I think you learn more as you go along and that keeps taking you in other directions.

Can you talk me through the publication process for this novel, and how it’s changed over the years?

I wrote a proposal for the novel, and then wrote six chapters to show to my agent who then showed it to a few publishers. Two made offers and I discussed with the agent which one would be best to go with. I ended up choosing Allen & Unwin as they’re very enthusiastic about Australian books, and the publisher was very keen. I think in earlier years, you’d maybe just write two chapters as it was much easier getting contracts than it is today. Now publishers are quite cautious and conservative about the books they sign up. They want to know they’re going to do well or have a fair chance of doing well.

There have been so many changes in the publishing industry, and it can be difficult for aspiring authors to know where to start. What does having the support of a big, mainstream publisher such as Allen & Unwin, mean to you and your writing career?

It’s fabulous, and they have a very strong publicity department to help publicise the book. It does give you confidence. But then I’ll probably go through the same process for the next book … and you’re only as good as your last one!

Who’s the first person to read your writing, and how did they make Elizabeth and Elizabeth what it is today?

Usually my partner, who’s also a writer, will read my writing if I ask him to and give an opinion. But with this one, he declined as he said it was a genre he’s totally unfamiliar with and wouldn’t be a good judge. In the end, I gave it to a good friend, Clare, to read and then waited in trepidation. But she really encouraged me to keep going, so I was very thankful.

One of the things I enjoyed most about this book was the characterisation of both Betsey Macquarie and Elizabeth Macarthur. How much of what you included in the book is based on fact versus poetic licence?

Nearly all the events of the book actually happened in real life, but the friendship between the two women was a fiction woven around their actual lives. We don’t know if they were friends, although I think it would have been quite likely. They would have had to keep it secret, however, with their husbands’ politics. So, their conversations and some of the intrigue and plotting between them were poetic licence. But I generally tried to keep very close to documented history.

What’s your average writing day look like?

I get up at 7am and go straight to my desk to write. I have a break for coffee and another break for lunch, then work till around 5pm when I’ll usually go to the gym. I might do an hour or two’s work in the evening as well, depending on how close a deadline is. I also work as a journalist and a travel writer, so I juggle the book-writing with my journalism assignments and trips overseas. I joke that Betsey has travelled far more around the world in my suitcase than she would have ever dreamt she could do in real life!. 

Who are your idols, both professionally and personally?

Professional idols are Paul Theroux, love his searing wit and insight, and Bill Bryson for his sense of fun and Philippa Gregory for making history so incredibly enthralling. Personally, former Gov-General Quentin Bryce who’s such a sharp judge of people but incredibly generous of spirit, and 2 men I’ve written books about, Father Chris Riley and Father Bob Maguire, both big-hearted men and each extraordinary in their own rights.  

What books did you read growing up? How does that differ to what appeals to you now?

I’ve always read a lot of fiction, going from books about ballet school (I always dreamt of being a ballerina, despite having two left feet) to the classics like 100 Years of Solitude, Pride and Prejudice, The Mill on the Floss, Catcher in the Rye, anything by Maya Angelou, lots of books about Africa, a continent I’ve always loved, by Doris Lessing and Ngugi wa Thiong’o, and lots of travel books – Paul Theroux, Bill Bryson, Eric Newby, Jan Morris. I still love the same books!

Are there any new releases (or upcoming new releases) you’re really looking forward to?

I can’t wait to read Tara June Winch’s The Yield and Isabel Allende’s The Soul of a Woman comes out in March.

What’s the best advice you’ve ever received in regard to your writing, and what advice would you give to aspiring authors?

Just write! The more you write, the better you become. It’s like exercising a muscle.

If you could invite three people from history (living or dead) to dinner, who would you invite and why?

Muhammad Ali, Mahatma Ghandi, Emily Pankhurst.

In an age run by the internet and social media, how important is it for you to use the different platforms available to you to engage with fans?

It’s becoming more and more important, but shouldn’t be to the exclusion of everything else. Some avid readers don’t want to, or can’t, use social media, so I have to find more traditional ways of connecting with them. I always welcome personal emails through my website.  

No matter how much your work is loved, there’s probably always going to be one person who doesn’t like it. How do you deal with negative criticism?

Just because someone doesn’t like my work, doesn’t make my work bad. I try to keep remembering that! It does, however, offer me an opportunity for self-analysis and reflection.

Do you have any events (virtual or in person) coming up to promote Elizabeth and Elizabeth?

I’m speaking at the Sydney Mechanics’ School of Arts on February 24 online, and am travelling around a number of libraries to give talks.

Do you have another project on the go? What’s next for you?

I’ve just finished a biography of a remarkable Aboriginal woman, Dianne O’Brien, who’s had an horrific early life but won through to become a real hero, and leader of her people. It’s called Daughter of the River Country and comes out in July with Echo Publishing.

Elizabeth and Elizabeth is published through Allen & Unwin. To find out more, visit their website.

This article is part of my Spotlight on Australian Authors series. If you’ve missed an article – including my review of Elizabeth and Elizabeth, click below.

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